I think the main goal for a leader, aside from setting a main direction and arbitrate, is to spread team spirit. If someone works just because they have to and not for an idea or a project which is close to their heart, then it’s delusional to expect the best from them. On this same topic, treat your colleagues with the same respect, there is no place for favoritism or affection unless you want to institute an unfair system. I’m not saying it’s bad to be friendly, I just think there is a time for everything and when it’s time to work, don’t get loose.
As a part of my series about “Lessons From Inspirational Women in STEM and Tech”, I had the pleasure of interviewing Kim Savaroche.
Kim is a research engineer with expertise in computer science, computer vision and data science. She contributes to Clay AIR research and development lab as a PhD candidate with a focus on machine learning and object annotation in a 3D space and image reconstruction. She is passionate about manga, novels and comics, and is a tennis player.
Thank you so much for doing this with us! Before we dig in, our readers would like to get to know you a bit. Can you tell us a bit about your backstory and how you grew up?
Thank you for your attention. As I am an adopted and only child, my “family” and my friends are my bearings. I grew up in a small town in the South West of France, reading books (novels, comics or manga), playing video games and tennis. I try to improve myself or learn something new everyday. Balance, perseverance and regularity are my keys.
Is there a particular book, film, or podcast that made a significant impact on you? Can you share a story or explain why it resonated with you so much?
The animation Revolutionary Girl Utena from the late 90s has a special place in my heart. When I first watched it, I was very young, I did not understand all the metaphors or the serious subjects, and the end was a little confusing. However, the drawing style was unique, the narration was excellent, the swords fighting and the soundtrack were epic. The universe (reversed castle in sky, infinite staircase, time loop, witch tale, etc.) are still unmatched for me. I am aware that this piece of art can be disturbing and I would recommend that you inquire a minimum before watching it.
On a more serious note, Kohler (Figures Du Savoir) Victor Rosenthal and Yves-Marie Visetti was the first book that resonated while working on the computer vision part of the Clay solution and beginning my thesis. It addressed the question of “what is a shape ?” In the latter, it explains that in the act of perception we do not just juxtapose a host of details but we perceive global forms (Gestalt) which bring the elements together. To illustrate this idea let’s take a musical example: when one remembers a melody, one remembers a global structure of music and not a successive series of notes taken in isolation. To link this notion with my work, the question was “how is it possible to group a cluster of pixels into a harmonious shape?” To answer this question, Wertheimer proposed laws that helped me to craft and refine the rules written in my code.
Is there a particular story that inspired you to pursue a career in the X Reality industry? We’d love to hear it.
I love video games so naturally I was quite curious about the challenge represented by the Clay AIR project: locate and follow the hands of users in real time so that they can interact with the virtual world without adding any accessories (controller, joystick, glove, exoskeleton, etc.). From an UX perspective, becoming aware of the limitations related to AR or VR settings makes me look forward to what ingenious solution the XR industry will opt for.
Can you share the most interesting story that happened to you since you began this fascinating career?
I think it would be the patent process: looking for the state of the art, finding why each solution does not suit my problem and creating a new solution. Finding there was the possibility to write a patent about an home made tool was the cherry on the top, I felt blessed.
Can you share a story about the funniest mistake you made when you were first starting? Can you tell us what lesson you learned from that?
The story is linked to the cognitive bias named “inattentional blindness”, it happens when we’re failing to notice a stimulus that is yet perfectly visible. In my case, and every software engineer can relate, I was editing my code and testing it on a VR device. Without a doubt, I began to draw conclusions : it’s better when i do this but still not fine for that.. No need to describe how disappointed I was when I found out my work was not in what I was testing, no update, absolutely nothing has changed. To avoid this error, I rely on test-driven development methods : set up unit tests before writing a solving code.
None of us are able to achieve success without some help along the way. Is there a particular person who you are grateful towards who helped get you to where you are? Can you share a story about that?
Jean-Baptiste Guignard is my thesis supervisor so I can only be thankful for introducing me to cognitive science and helping me through this academic journey. I know how tedious proofreading is… At the time Clay AIR was still a startup and putting together a team, I am really grateful he gave me his trust as I was just out of my engineering school so I‘m doing my best to contribute to the project.
Are you working on any exciting new projects now? How do you think that will help people?
As Clay AIR allows us to locate and follow the hands of a user in real time from a 2D camera provided by AR / VR / MR devices, I’m working on how we can improve our machine learning procedure to be more precise on estimating how far the hand (adding the Z dimension). Once the hand has been spotted and the gesture has been identified, it is possible to link it to an action / instruction: increase or decrease the volume of a sound file, enter a 3D object, activate commands in a car interior or airplane, etc. The experience will be more immersive, just playing with 3D elements with your bare hands is amazing.
Ok super. Thank you for all that. Let’s now shift to the main focus of our interview. The VR, AR and MR industries seem so exciting right now. What are the 3 things in particular that most excite you about the industry? Can you explain or give an example?
As touch screens have revolutionized our daily lives, I’m curious to see what the new UX standard will be, how menus will be designed, which gesture will be democratized for such and such an action (like closing an application for example).
The video game industry is beginning to test VR gameplay. On one hand, I can easily see how narrative and puzzle solving can incorporate users’ actions so that their choices are more subtil than selecting a special dialogue. On the other hand, any games that need players to move precisely in a virtual world, like in adventure and platform games, do not seem to be easily adaptable. I’m skeptical about how varied the game catalog can be without the constraints of suits or treadmillssuit, treadmill, etc.).
I am convinced that the educational scope is substantial. Wearing a headset to observe a 3D model, interact with it while listening to a detailed description, you can’t find more pedagic tools. Moreover, you can still visit museums, art galleries or any educational places, which is quite convenient nowadays.
What are the 3 things that concern you about the VR, AR and MR industries? Can you explain? What can be done to address those concerns?
My first concern is about how energy consuming XR hardwares are. Batteries are drained quickly, in particular if you are outside, which is the worst setup for AR glasses by the way as video feedback on the screens are not strong enough. If the power comes from your smartphone, and not from the glasses, its autonomy is drastically shortened.
The second one is my uncomfort while wearing glasses or bigger headsets : my forehead is burning. Temperatures increase briefly and you naturally want to put down the device just to get fresh air.
The last one depends on the quality of the six degrees of freedom (6DoF) which refers to the freedom of movement of a rigid body in 3D space. When you are not moving and the virtual world is drifting away, you can be subject to motion sickness. Combined with how hot your head feels, hardware will be a negative association with nauseous symptoms.
I think the entertainment aspects of VR, AR and MR are apparent. Can you share with our readers how these industries can help us at work?
I would say the main advantage is the 3D modeling. A mock-up is ideal to convey ideas. On a taller scale, production chains can be checked with a layering process : put the virtual object with requested measures on the real products so that we can compare them and spot differences. Quality assurance is impacted but XR devices are not yet democratised.
Are there other ways that VR, AR and MR can improve our lives? Can you explain?
With this technology, it’s easier to project ourselves in another environment or to represent an object. Visiting an apartment or a house, alternating the placement of furniture in an empty area, choosing the colour for an object are great examples of what we could explore before making a decision. Still on a pedagogical level, tutorials, furniture assembly kit or recipes could be followed step by step, we only have to reproduce the actions. It would be easier than reading instructions and imagine what the right move is.
Let’s zoom out a bit and talk in broader terms. Are you currently satisfied with the status quo regarding women in STEM? If not, what specific changes do you think are needed to change the status quo?
Well, I didn’t work with many female software engineers, and in my cursus we were only 3 women in a class of 35. Computer science is not really popular… So let’s say that I’m satisfied in the way that if a girl wants to learn about STEM, the educational system will not deter her. What I’m a little bit more impatiente about is the cultural evolution regarding what is considered to be a job, a school subject or a quality more attributed to women or men. To be clear, I’m against either negative or positive discrimination, skill evaluation should be genderless.
What are the “myths” that you would like to dispel about working in your industry? Can you explain what you mean?
In fact, AI products are only highly specialized tools. They can be compared to cogs and springs in mechanical devices, they cannot magically modify themselves or improve their autonomy. AI models are not smart; they are static systems trained by human hands. Even if they are efficient, the product is perceived as dumb as it fails to answer the client’s needs.
I invite you to read the article “HAI as Human Augmented Intelligence: from Cognitive Biases to the Nature of Cognitive Technology”, the full argument repositions AI ethics within the framework of actual AI development and human decision-making. This inevitably involves demystifying some of the myths surroundingAI, and explaining and critiquing the underlying assumptions about human cognition from a philosophy of science perspective. It helps to understand how AI can not self-modify itself or surpass humans or become independent if you are interested in this subject.
To sum up, the design of a computer program is inevitably biased. It reflects the values of the designer and the choices for the target audience. Development is not a neutral activity, at any stage of writing code, the developer does not have the ability to make objective choices. His choices are written down and frozen in the code. In the case of machine learning algorithms, the training product changes without changing the code. The result may be different from one trial to the next by leaving the hyper parameters as they are and not changing the learning base. The influence of the creators will be visible in the choice of the learning base, the categories of outputs and in the architecture of the model. In both cases they are only reflections of human biais and contextual constraints.
What are your “5 Leadership Lessons I Learned From My Experience as a Woman in Tech” and why? (Please share a story or example for each.)
The first is the most difficult for me : you can say “no”. I am very anxious when I answer with a negative response, even if I am entitled to do it or even if it’s a logical choice. I would feared my interlocutor takes it badly or think I am incompetent. Now, I don’t consider it so bad anymore, I firmly answer and take time to explain my choices.
Your colleagues have got very different skills from you so suggesting if there are some volunteers to share their knowledge, assure them there is always time for formation. The more you know and the more you can understand. A new constructive point of view is always welcome, whether you want to organize your thoughts or test your knowledge.
I think I will state the obvious with this one, but I saw too many enterprises with this default to not borach it: communication is the key. Let down your ego, it won’t help you progress or navigate through a toxic environment. Be limpid with your intention, your success and mostly your failures so you can learn from them.
Problems need to be solved, whatever the cause is. The worst case is ignoring one until it turns into an omerta. I know the best solution sometimes implies to do something you dislike profoundly but avoiding a snowball effect is worth it.
I think the main goal for a leader, aside from setting a main direction and arbitrate, is to spread team spirit. If someone works just because they have to and not for an idea or a project which is close to their heart, then it’s delusional to expect the best from them. On this same topic, treat your colleagues with the same respect, there is no place for favoritism or affection unless you want to institute an unfair system. I’m not saying it’s bad to be friendly, I just think there is a time for everything and when it’s time to work, don’t get loose.
You are a person of great influence. If you could inspire a movement that would bring the most amount of good to the most amount of people, what would that be? You never know what your idea can trigger. 🙂
I’m quite fond of politeness, exchanging a kind greeting or being the author of a gentle attention for example, so I can only invite readers to stay delicate. We all have our bad days but we can still temper our mood. In particular on digital platforms, it’s not because we don’t see others that we can slacken and become rude. Even more in this pandemic time, the more responsible we act, the less damage we’ll do.
We are very blessed that very prominent leaders read this column. Is there a person in the world, or in the US with whom you would like to have a private breakfast or lunch, and why? He or she might just see this if we tag them 🙂
That’s a very good question… I can’t stop listening to Brigitte Lecordier and Dorothée Pousséo’s voices, I have a deep respect for their dubbing work… However, to stay on topic I would really like to meet madame Pénélope Bagieu, the French illustrator and comic designer known for Culottées or Brazen: Rebel Ladies Who Rocked the World for the English title if I’m not mistaken. Her work consists of thirty short biographies (5 to 10 plates), each one centered on a girl or a woman who, during her life, defied prohibitions or social norms relating to sexism or patriarchy. Her style and her humour do not detract from the seriousness of the subjects discussed. I would love to learn how she chose her ladies, which one is her favourite and why she chose to focus on this part of one story rather than another. I highly recommend this book if you didn’t have the pleasure to read it yet.
Wisdom From The Women Leading The VR, AR & Mixed Reality Industries, With Kim Savaroche of Clay AIR was originally published in Authority Magazine on Medium, where people are continuing the conversation by highlighting and responding to this story.
