An Interview With Fotis Georgiadis
We need to close on the thinking. So, we need the perception to be moving in the right direction. We also need to close on the emotion that is connected with that desired perception. Then, we need to close on the behavior which is what most people think of as “closing.”
As a part of my series about how to be great at closing sales without seeming pushy, obnoxious, or salesy, I had the pleasure of interviewing Stephen McGarvey.
Stephen McGarvey is the author of Ignite a Shift: Engaging Minds, Guiding Emotions and Driving Behavior and Founder & President of Solutions in Mind, and a world-leading authority on unconscious communication, positive persuasion and influencing with integrity. He is a sought-after speaker, presenting to a variety of international audiences in a myriad of venues, ranging from the American Psychiatric Association Conference to numerous Fortune 500 companies. McGarvey is a Certified Master Practitioner and Trainer of Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP) and a Certified Master Hypnotist. Employing the empowering modalities of neuroscience and the latest in behavioral psychology, he hosts The Stephen McGarvey Podcast and is known for bringing contagious enthusiasm and a powerful presence to the professional speaking circuit.
Thank you for doing this with us! Before we dig in, our readers would like to learn a bit more about you. Can you tell us the “backstory” about what brought you to this career path?
Although successful now, I faced challenges early on. As a child I was identified as having a learning disability. I struggled in school and failed grade two. I persevered and continued my lifelong love of reading and learning, propelled by a fascination with how different people think and process information.
I entered university as a mature student where I discovered the fields of neurolinguistics and hypnosis, topics that ignited my curiosity. Fascinated, I changed my focus of study to neurolinguistics.
After graduation I began a private practice in counselling and coaching. One of my clients was a corporate trainer who found my techniques so helpful, she asked me to speak at her company’s sales and marketing event. I really enjoyed that experience and in 2001 my wife Natalie and I launched Solutions in Mind, a boutique consulting firm specializing in the psychology of persuasion and influence.
The team at Solutions In Mind help people understand how their own brain works — that thinking impacts emotion which drives behavior. Now, 21 years later, I’m an internationally renowned speaker and best-selling author whose expertise is relied on by C-suite leaders and teams around the world.
I love being able to positively impact the way people think and communicate. I am grateful that through the success of our businesses, Natalie and I are able to give to a number of charities like Ratanak International, which supports survivors of human trafficking.
Can you share with our readers the most interesting or amusing story that occurred to you in your career so far? Can you share the lesson or take away you took out of that story?
I was once invited as a guest lecturer on a World Residences at Sea cruise. As part of the preparation, the cruise line advised me about how they expected me to interact with their residents. I was told that most of the residents were billionaires and that this was their home at sea, so I should “not speak until spoken to”! They also warned me that I may only have a few people attend the lecture because while residents liked to have the option of coming to lectures, they generally skipped actually going to the talks.
Rather than settle with lecturing to a few interested residents, I felt challenged to build rapport with all the residents. For the first lecture only, a few people came and with each subsequent lecture the audience grew as word spread. By the fourth and final lecture every resident who was on board the ship attended!
One of the people I built rapport with was an Arabian Sheik. We hit it off so well that he invited my wife Natalie and me back to the Mediterranean for an extended cruise as his personal guests with all expenses paid.
The lesson of the story is if you’re committed to an outcome there is always a way to achieve it. I saw being told ‘not to speak until spoken to’ as a challenge to work around. I focused on building rapport with the residents so word would spread organically which drew residents in to my lectures.
In this example, as with everything in life, if you assume you can’t do something, you never will do it. If you assume there is a way, you will figure out that you can accomplish it.
Are you working on any exciting new projects now? How do you think that will help people?
I just finished my first book Ignite a Shift and I’m currently working on a digital eLearning companion that will be launched next year. The eLearning companion will take participants through the book, chapter by chapter, to enhance and deepen their learning in application of the skills covered in the book.
The book and eLearning companion are designed to help people:
- become more effective persuaders and influencers
- improve their communication skills
- influence with integrity
- learn more about how the brain works
- understand how thinking impacts emotion which drives behavior
None of us are able to achieve success without some help along the way. Is there a particular person who you are grateful towards who helped get you to where you are? Can you share a story about that?
I am here today because of the love and support of my wife and business partner, Natalie. Also, I’ve been fortunate enough to be surrounded by an amazing team and the book Ignite a Shift would still be a work in progress if it wasn’t for Natalie, Kimberley, Ken and Carol who were integral in its success.
I’ve also had two very powerful mentors who have taught me to look beyond what’s best for Natalie and I and instead focus on how our actions can benefit everyone.
The first mentor actually did the opposite of this. He was a masterful communicator and as a result often manipulated people, using those around him for his own purposes. I learned what not to do from him, which is just as valuable a lesson. From this experience I learned how important integrity is and why it’s essential to have the best interests at heart of those you have around you as part of your journey towards success.
The other mentor I work with in a coaching capacity. She is a super successful real estate developer and businesswoman who has built and sold multiple businesses. Under her mentorship and encouragement Natalie and I launched our second business My Home Suite Home. She’s been a big cheerleader for us, particularly as we’ve grown our real estate portfolio and our other investment portfolios.
She has been a real role model for me in seeing that the more successful you are, the more generous you can be and that giving of yourself including your time, knowledge, wisdom and resources is more rewarding and joyful than just the dollars in the bank or the achievements in and of themselves.
The other piece worth mentioning is that mistakes are part of the journey. I’ve made mistakes in my career that have been very costly. Instead of feeling discouraged and quitting, I told myself that anyone who has been successful has made mistakes and lost some money and so when I make mistakes, I keep moving forward and learn from them.
For the benefit of our readers, can you tell us a bit why you are an authority on the topic of sales?
I have an background in psychology and neurolinguistics as well as influence and persuasion. Large corporations throughout the pharmaceutical and medical industries bring me in to train their sales and leadership teams in persuasion and influence.
The number one thing we need to do is sell ourselves and our skillset and do that in a context that adds value. Learning how to build rapport and sell ourselves and the value we bring in a way that resolves challenges for others is what selling is all about. I think that true sales is serving others in the context of fulfilling their need(s).
Ok. Thanks for all that. Let’s now jump to the main core of our interview. As you know, nearly any business a person will enter, will involve some form of sales. At the same time, most people have never received any formal education about how to be effective at selling. Why do you think our education system teaches nearly every other arcane subject, but sales, one of the most useful and versatile topics, is totally ignored?
This is one of life’s biggest mysteries! Sales is a core competency. No matter what industry we’re in we are selling, whether it’s our ideas, projects, or ourselves. We’re selling our vision of the future, or our vision for a product or service.
Thinking back to my definition of selling, if we think about serving others then this becomes something that would fulfill the needs of society, which should be included in the educational system.
This discussion, entitled, “How To Be Great At Sales Without Seeming Salesy”, is making an assumption that seeming salesy or pushy is something to be avoided. Do you agree with this assumption? Whether yes, or no, can you articulate why you feel the way you do?
Yes, I agree completely.
When people have a negative view of selling, they think about being conned, bullied, or talked into something they neither want nor need. When someone leaves you with that feeling, it’s because they want to push something on you with their own best interest at heart, and they also typically lack rapport. Rather than focusing on fulfilling your need, these salespeople are focused on talking you into something or getting you to buy something.
My mindset is the opposite.
I believe sales is about fulfilling needs. If what I am selling is misaligned with what someone needs then I would rather point that person in the direction of something else that will.
Sales has a bad reputation because of the self-serving individuals out there who have their own needs at heart. Instead, our focus as salespeople should be on sales as a way to help others, and when you do so, you add significant value.
The seven stages of a sales cycle are usually broken down to versions of Prospecting, Preparation, Approach, Presentation, Handling objections, Closing, and Follow-up. Which stage do you feel that you are best at? What is your unique approach, your “secret sauce”, to that particular skill? Can you explain or give a story?
Let’s talk about handling objections — I don’t believe in it. This usually shocks senior sales people.
As an amateur magician, I know that the audience’s attention will go where my attention is. This fact applies to sales, too. As a salesperson, if my attention is on handling objections then I keep the other person’s focus and my own on that objection. Instead, I believe in perception management, and I think about the objection in terms of asking myself three things:
- What is the person’s current perception?
- What is the desired perception I want them to have?
- How do I engage skillfully in a conversation that reframes or alters their perception in the way I want them to proceed? This is a skill that I cover in my book, Ignite a Shift.
I was recently in a training with a new client who was doing root cause analysis and objection handling. The whole focus was on the problem itself as opposed to thinking about their client’s current perception, what the team wanted the perception to be and how they could influence the client’s perception in that direction.
Sales processes are different and vary from industry to industry. As far as a sales approach, Challenger Sales and to a lesser extent Spin Selling are good models. My favorite of all the models I’ve evaluated is the Sandler Sales System. The reason I think Sandler is the best one is because it is the most comprehensive and complete, and instead of just focusing on steps it looks at the psychology of influence as part of the sales process.
What we specialize in at Solutions In Mind is mastering persuasion and influence which integrates, enhances and improves any existing sales process. We can take any step of a sales model and enhance how that step is done.
Lead generation, or prospecting, is one of the basic steps of the sales cycle. Obviously every industry will be different, but can you share some of the fundamental strategies you use to generate good, qualified leads?
It’s really simple. Add enough value to create a pull and your product or service will spread by word of mouth. That’s been our secret to success in the 20 plus years we’ve been doing this. We’ve never once cold called or prospected during that time and the business has taken us around the globe completely through word of mouth.
That has worked for us, and obviously different industries require slightly different approaches. There are various models, and you need to find the process that works for you. My philosophy is to add enough value to create a pull and from that word will spread.
In my experience, I think the final stages of Handling Objections, Closing, and Follow-up, are the most difficult parts for many people. Why do you think ‘Handling Objections’ is so hard for people? What would you recommend for one to do, to be better at ‘Handling Objections’?
The reason handling objections is difficult is because it keeps the focus, and the client’s focus on the objections. As mentioned, I recommend salespeople stop handling objections and start managing perceptions.
Reframe objection handling as perception management — what is the current perception and what is the desired perception? Then have meaningful conversations that influence the person’s perception towards the desired outcome. As you do that effectively they will be mentally and emotionally closing themselves as part of the sales process.
‘Closing’ is of course the proverbial Holy Grail. Can you suggest 5 things one can do to successfully close a sale without being perceived as pushy? If you can, please share a story or example, ideally from your experience, for each.
I believe we need to close in three different ways.
First, we need to close on the thinking. So, we need the perception to be moving in the right direction. We also need to close on the emotion that is connected with that desired perception. Then, we need to close on the behavior which is what most people think of as “closing.”
The reality is if I’m attempting to close you on a behavior and I haven’t closed on the thinking or emotion then closing on the behavior is difficult. If I have closed on the thinking and emotion, then closing on behavior is very easy.
Closing to me is the easy part. If I have clearly identified a need and demonstrated I’m the unique and appropriate solution to that need, and if I have a track record of results, then closing is the thing I put the least amount of energy into because it happens as a by-product of the person believing I am the solution to their need.
Too often, people think of closing as talking someone into something, which goes back to the negative perception of salespeople. I think of closing as demonstrating I understand their need and having them realize that we’re the best solution to that need. When I do this well, the closing happens automatically.
I know that closing differs from industry to industry because all sales cycles are different. I don’t prospect because word of mouth brings in the prospects. Instead, I focus my preparation on creating a comprehensive needs analysis. My approach is to demonstrate we are a proven solution with a track record of success and that collaborating with us will resolve the client’s problem.
Ultimately, we need to have passion and congruently communicate that passion as part of how we present ourselves as a solution. I always tell people if they don’t believe what they are selling is the best solution then go and sell what you believe the best solution to be. In doing so, you’ll be better able to represent and sell that solution as you’ll be more passionate about your job and more congruent in how you approach sales.
Finally, what are your thoughts about ‘Follow up’? Many businesses get leads who might be interested but things never seem to close. What are some good tips for a business leader to successfully follow up and bring things to a conclusion, without appearing overly pushy or overeager?
I think it comes back to what our intention is. If we approach leads from a state of curiosity and a genuine desire to fulfill a need then people will welcome a follow-up call.
If we approach from a perspective where we’re focused on making a sale or are being pushy then the person will be resistant because they’ll think they’re being sold something they don’t need.
Follow-up to ensure needs are being met. Again, if I’m not the solution I am always happy to say that and use my network to refer to the person who would be the best solution.
As you know there are so many modes of communication today. For example, In-person, phone calls, video calls, emails, and text messages. In your opinion, which of these communication methods should be avoided when attempting to close a sale or follow up? Which are the best ones? Can you explain or give a story?
The answer depends on the dynamics between you and the customer. I have clients I can text or email because I have a history with them.
Personally, if it’s a first-time interaction I would rather have it face to face because it’s more personable and easier to build rapport given that you have more information to calibrate.
In fact, my preference is usually face to face for that reason. During COVID we had some new clients where we had to meet virtually. Some of those clients brought us in to teach them virtual presentation skills to be more effective in this new norm. So, your mode to communicate is case dependent and needs to be evaluated in the context of the situation. I have clients during COVID who I have texted. I worked on multiple projects with these clients and have a bank of credibility with them, so I can text them and they feel comfortable texting right back.
In other cases, I have newer clients where I will coordinate a zoom call. If I have a choice between email or a virtual call, then I will choose virtual because I have more information to calibrate. I’m more comfortable on the phone than email and I find there is less room for miscommunication on a phone call than with an email, and there is even more room for miscommunication over text than there is with an email.
When I talk about having information to calibrate, really what I’m referring to is a concept I discuss in Ignite a Shift which is deleted information. When you communicate by email you miss tone, etc… and with phone, email and text you miss out on the physical facial expressions and hand gestures are that are an essential part of communication (which is why a virtual call may be better than a phone call).
The fact is a completely new work environment is part of the evolution of going through COVID. The pandemic forced us to re-evaluate what is essential and what isn’t to get things done. One of the results is that corporate work spaces have gone the way of the dinosaur.
As a leader, consider this. If the people who you surround yourself with have integrity and they love what they do, then you can be confident that they are more productive working remotely than they would be wasting an hour each way commuting to the office. If those individuals are not effective at the office, then I would be suspicious if they are working effectively at home. I think it’s about surrounding yourself with people who have integrity and a passion for what they do.
Ok, we are nearly done. Here is our final “meaty” question. You are a person of enormous influence. If you could inspire a movement that would bring the most amount of good to the greatest amount of people, what would that be? You never know what your idea can trigger. 🙂
I think instead of inspiring a movement I would find one that is already in place that I could get behind and support. Then, I can do what I do best and support others who inspire me by what they’re doing to help others in the world — those who are being taken advantage of or who are dealing with disadvantages. I really think about how we can use our resources in the most exponential way by supporting others who are already doing something that we feel is worthwhile.
I mentioned that Ratanak International is one of the organizations that we support, they are doing great work in Cambodia. Last month, we also decided to support a missionary in Cambodia on a monthly basis. They’ve dealt with long-term COVID effects and have been struggling and we’ve decided to back them.
Ultimately, I believe in finding a movement that you believe in with similar beliefs and values to your own, and then stretching yourself to support others to do what they do best.
How can our readers follow you online?
Social:
https://www.facebook.com/stephenmcgarveyone
https://twitter.com/Solutionsinmind
https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephenmcgarvey/
https://www.instagram.com/stephen.mcgarvey/
Website:
And please buy and leave reviews of the book!
Thank you for the interview. We wish you only continued success!
Thank you! As a token of my gratitude, I’d like to offer a free eBook to your audience. Simply visit https://bit.ly/IgniteAShift to receive a free electronic copy of Ignite a Shift
Stephen McGarvey Of Solutions In Mind On How To Be Great At Sales Without Seeming Salesy was originally published in Authority Magazine on Medium, where people are continuing the conversation by highlighting and responding to this story.
