An Interview With Fotis Georgiadis
Better customer service means better customer loyalty. The more you foster a culture of diversity and inclusion, the better you’ll be able to understand and meet the needs of a diverse customer base. If you serve customers with what they actually need versus what you think they need, they’ll be happier and want to keep doing business with you.
As a part of our series about “How Diversity Can Increase a Company’s Bottom Line,” I had the pleasure of interviewing Sejal Thakkar, chief culture officer at Nobody Studios.
On a mission to educate and empower people to create a world where everyone is treated with dignity and respect, Sejal Thakkar is responsible for cultivating a people-first culture at Nobody Studios, a high-velocity venture studio headquartered in Orange County, CA. She’s a former employment law attorney, a TEDx speaker (shedding light on ‘The Pain, Power, and Paradox of Bias’), and the founder and chief civility officer at TrainXtra, where she helps leaders create positive, safe, and respectful workplaces through customized training and coaching.
Thank you so much for doing this with us! Before we dive into the main part of our interview, our readers would love to “get to know you” a bit more. Can you share a bit of your “backstory” with us?
Sure! The first thing to know is that I’m the child of Indian immigrants, and I experienced a lot of harassment, discrimination, and prejudice from a very young age. I was born soon after my parents came to the States, and I grew up in a predominantly Italian neighborhood in Chicago called Elmwood Park. We were the only Indian family there, and a lot of people made it clear we were not welcome.
I also had to deal with the duality of being between two cultures. At home, I experienced traditional Indian culture — Indian clothes, Indian food, Indian religion. Outside the house, everything was American. Bridging those two worlds would have been a struggle in its own right, but it was made all the more complicated by the antagonism from the outside world.
So, growing up, I always had a drive toward social justice. I wanted to do something to advocate for and help marginalized people because I didn’t want others to have to go through what I did. So very early, I knew I was going to go to law school. And I did become a lawyer, but not the kind you might expect.
You’d probably assume that I’d represent people who were victims of discrimination. But I took the exact opposite path and ended up being a defense attorney. So I was representing people who were accused of harassing and bullying others. And that decision has had a huge impact on my career, because I got to see the other side of the discrimination coin and effect change at the source.
A big part of that journey — both for me personally and for my clients — was learning about how unconscious bias affects us all, and how we can work intentionally to recognize it in ourselves and grow beyond our conditioning.
These lessons paved the way for me to start my own company, TrainXtra, where since 2017 I’ve trained company leaders and teams on how to create positive, safe, and respectful workplaces.
And all of these experiences have led to my new role as chief culture officer for Nobody Studios, where I have the unique and exciting opportunity to design and develop a truly safe and inclusive company from the ground up!
Can you share the funniest or most interesting story that happened to you since you started your career? Can you tell us the lesson or take away you took out of that story?
As a defense attorney, I got to see prejudice from a new perspective. I had thought I was going to encounter a lot of evil, malicious people trying to hurt others. But what I saw more of was people who were well-intentioned, but misguided.
They were good people trying to do their best — they just had a lot of biases because of how they were raised. And now, without even realizing it, they were saying and doing things that were offensive. Most of them had never been confronted about their behavior, and it had gone on for so long that it looked like intentional discrimination.
As I delved into this work, I quickly had to come to terms with the fact that I, too, was carrying biases that I often didn’t realize. We all do.
To be neutral as an attorney, I had to start working through my own biases. For example, if I was dealing with somebody that was harassing another woman, I recognized that, because I’m a woman and I’d been harassed, I instinctively had a negative reaction toward the accused. I had to acknowledge that and take steps to prevent it from clouding my judgment and affecting my behavior toward them.
And the really interesting thing is that some of the biases I uncovered within myself went in the opposite direction from what you might expect.
For example, early in my career, I worked on a case where an Indian woman was being bullied by her white male coworker. Now, knowing my background, you’d probably assume I’d lean toward the side of the Indian woman, right? She’s Indian, she’s female, she got bullied — just like all the things I experienced.
But I actually had a negative bias against her, because she had an accent. You see, I’d been bullied and harassed because of my parents’ accent, and I had internalized that negative perception of Indian accents. So the minute she started talking, all of a sudden, I felt a negative reaction towards her. That was quite a shock to realize!
Because of my commitment to fairness and serving the cause of justice, I had to develop strategies (like the HAT approach I describe in my TEDx talk) to recognize and work on my own biases consistently. And I still do to this day.
Can you please give us your favorite “Life Lesson Quote”? Can you tell us a story about how that was relevant in your own life?
“You can either feel sorry for yourself or treat what happened as a gift. Everything is either an opportunity to grow or an obstacle that keeps you from growing. You get to choose.” — Wayne Dyer
I love that quote, because life is full of challenges, and we can’t control it all. But we do get a choice in how we respond.
When I was a sophomore in high school, one day, on my way to lunch, I stopped by my locker and found a big, ugly note taped to the door. It read, “Go back to your country.” Instantly, I felt fear and rage simmering inside of me. It shook me to my core, and I barely remember eating my lunch.
What I do remember is what happened next. Putting my tray away, a girl in line started making fun of me, calling me a “dot head.” I lost it. I lunged at her with an animal fury. It took three people to hold me back.
And the result? I was the only one to get sent home from school, and I even got suspended. It was incredibly unfair. This wasn’t the first time I’d gotten in trouble for sticking up for myself, and it wouldn’t be the last.
That night and the next morning, I lay in bed thinking about conversations I’d had with my dad when I’d felt broken like this before.
I remembered his words of kindness, compassion, and civility. He’d taught me two very important lessons about the paradox of bias. He would say, “You know, Sejal, when people are hurting those around them, they themselves are hurting inside.” And then he would remind me that we’re all capable of being hurtful and treating others badly.
That morning, I was left with the same choice that you’ve probably been left with at some point in your life. I could choose to be a victim and cling to my resentment, or I could choose to find a sense of compassion for those kids.
And ever since, as I’ve grown through my personal and professional experiences, I’ve been very intentional about how I choose to respond to what life brings me — trusting myself to meet the world with understanding, make the best decisions I can, and be 100% accountable and responsible for my choices.
None of us are able to achieve success without some help along the way. Is there a particular person who you are grateful towards who helped get you to where you are?
The first person that came to mind is actually my 9-year-old son, Shayn. He’s the reason for my success — why I show up every day and give my best. I want him to come of age in a better, safer, more civil and harmonious world than the one I came up in.
In terms of professional mentors, the senior partner at my first law firm (now called Manning & Kass, Ellrod, Ramirez, Trester LLP) was a man named Al de la Cruz. When I applied for that job, I had only six months of experience — civil experience — and the position they were advertising required three to five years in litigation. But I applied for it because I knew if they gave me a chance, I’d do a great job.
Al did give me that chance, and he became an amazing mentor. He had me in court litigating my first case within a year-and-a-half of being at that firm. Most attorneys have to wait five or six years to litigate. He had me second-chairing with him in no time, and then first-chairing within two years.
So he really gave me a tremendous opportunity. I worked hard at it, of course, but I owe him a huge amount of gratitude. I don’t think I would be in my career if it wasn’t for him giving me that chance.
What do you think makes your company stand out? Can you share a story?
I’m really proud to be chief culture officer at Nobody Studios. We’re a “venture studio,” which by itself is a new and uncommon business model. It means we build new companies in-house — rapidly and with a focus on efficiency in both time and capital.
People-first
One thing that really sets us apart is that we’re truly and deeply “people-first.” We’re committed to having a positive impact and making the world a better place. And we care about cultivating a great culture where our people can thrive and do meaningful work that helps everyone else out in the world.
To highlight that point — we’re a very young company, and there are not many startups that at this early stage have a chief culture officer. Everyone talks about culture, but few prioritize and put resources behind it.
I’m out there advocating intensively on these topics, so Nobody Studios bringing me onboard is a reflection of how serious we are about culture. We’re not messing around!
Crowd-infused
Another quality that sets us apart is that we’re crowd-infused in the way we build companies. That means we actively seek involvement from the crowd in many aspects of our work: generating ideas, giving feedback, raising capital, and more.
We’re not trying to be the smartest, coolest people in the room — we’re leaders and experts, of course, but we’re here to work with people and include them in the process, so we can deliver things that will uplift us all. Case in point: one of our companies in development started with a conversation between Mark S. McNally, our “Chief Nobody,” and an Uber driver, who is now a co-founder of one of our newcos.
Are you working on any new or exciting projects now? How do you think that might help people?
So many things! One of my priorities is developing our “culture manifesto.” That means looking at our core values and clarifying what I call our “truths” — the behaviors that we’re going to align to. This will help us communicate to everybody what to expect if you come to work at Nobody Studios. I want to make sure we’re very clear with people so they know what they’re getting into, because it may not be the right culture for everyone.
Another area I’m focused on is leadership development, and to me that includes everyone in the company. The way I see it, every “Nobody” is a leader. With that in mind, we’re looking at how to develop our Nobodies so they have the skills to be successful, and so we have a common language through which to grow together.
I’m also very involved in developing our recruiting, hiring, and onboarding strategies and practices. So recruiting involves understanding what roles we need to fill, finding people that have the right skills and experience, and then making sure they understand the available opportunities as well as the culture. That way we can both know if it’s a good fit.
My focus in hiring is making sure we set up procedures to mitigate any bias in who we end up bringing into the team. And then onboarding — we’re a distributed company with people in different time zones and countries, with different cultures, religions, and lived experiences. So how do we make sure every one of them feels welcome and comfortable in our company? I’m putting together a “first 100 days” program to answer that question.
So I’m very excited to have my hands in the clay — shaping all these different facets of our culture and our team. I’m committed to making sure we really walk our talk and change the norms for how workplaces operate, pioneering a much more inclusive and psychologically safe paradigm. We hope to provide a strong model for other organizations to follow, and inspiration for them to do even better than us!
How have you used your success to bring goodness to the world?
I’ve been an advocate for social justice and inclusive culture since I was a child. And I still spend most of my time promoting and advocating for diversity, inclusion, and civility! I do workshops, I give talks, I go on podcasts — whatever I can do to raise awareness on these issues. I’m also very active on LinkedIn, sharing resources, articles, and tools to help individuals grow and organizations evolve.
And when I talk about diversity and inclusion, I mean making space for every individual one of us. I think a lot of people think of diversity as race, religion, gender, etc. But we’re all different from each other. We all have our own experiences and unique characteristics.
Now, with Nobody Studios, I have a fantastic opportunity to scale my work and make a bigger impact than I ever thought possible. If we get this right — and I’m confident we will — these culture principles are going to infuse every company we create!
That will impact not only the thousands of people that will work in our companies, but the millions who will be their customers too. We’re aiming to create 100 companies in the next five years, so we’re talking about a LOT of people! It’s incredibly exciting.
Ok. Thank you for that. Let’s now jump to the main part of our interview. This may be obvious to you, but it is not intuitive to many people. Can you articulate to our readers five ways that increased diversity can help a company’s bottom line. (Please share a story or example for each.)
I’ll start by emphasizing that fostering diversity and inclusion is the morally right thing to do and has many benefits for all of us beyond the bottom line. That said, the business case is also very strong and was made a long time ago by top organizations like McKinsey & Co. Here are five of the top ways diversity and inclusion can boost your bottom line.
1. Variety of viewpoints increases adaptability
When you have people with different perspectives and opinions, you have that much more insight to draw from in building products and services and developing your culture. You’ll have access to a larger pool of ideas and talent to create companies that are more innovative.
A more diverse workforce can help your company understand and meet the demands of fluctuating markets. You can serve a greater variety of audiences in a greater number of ways. And you can better keep abreast of — and even lead — changes in the markets you serve.
2. Better customer service means better customer loyalty
The more you foster a culture of diversity and inclusion, the better you’ll be able to understand and meet the needs of a diverse customer base. If you serve customers with what they actually need versus what you think they need, they’ll be happier and want to keep doing business with you.
It costs far more to earn new customers than keep the ones you have, so this can have a major impact on your bottom line. And the real kicker is that when customers really love you, not only will they stick with you themselves, they’ll tell others and become a volunteer marketing team of their own.
3. Reduced legal expenses
Employment lawsuits and complaints are some of the most expensive and burdensome issues a company can have. According to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC), there are over 70,000 such complaints filed annually. An average discrimination lawsuit can cost well over $100,000 just in attorneys’ fees.
Harassment and discrimination complaints are far less common for companies that foster diversity and inclusion. Whenever I talk to startup founders about my training programs and they tell me they don’t have time to worry about culture, I hand them my card and tell them to call me when they get sued and need a lawyer, which will be much more expensive.
Creating a safe culture is not an expense, and it’s not a nice-to-have. It’s an investment, and it’s a necessary one. If you make this a priority, you’re going to save a lot of money (and stress).
4. Better employee retention
The Society of Human Resource Managers (SHRM) released a study showing that turnover due to toxic work environments cost businesses $223 billion over a five-year period.
Less diverse work environments tend to be more toxic, leading to lower morale, reduced productivity, and higher turnover. But remember, diversity alone won’t help create a positive work culture — you also need the inclusion piece to cultivate a psychologically safe workplace. Doing so will lead to happier and more loyal employees, and it will even strengthen your relationships with vendors.
5. More effective execution
Organizations that encourage diversity inspire employees to perform to their highest ability. So organization-wide diversity and inclusion strategies can result in higher productivity, effectiveness, and ingenuity.
Fostering a psychologically safe workplace rooted in diversity and inclusion just makes sense. It will give you a better, more positive culture where employees can thrive and serve your customers better. It will boost your reputation and make customers and vendors want to work with you. It will make you more competitive and adaptive in the market. And it will reduce expenses while supporting increased revenue.
What advice would you give to other business leaders to help their employees to thrive?
Diversity and inclusion offer a lot of beautiful benefits like the ones I’ve described above. But the reality is, when you put different people together, it also creates challenges. There are going to be conflicts that arise.
So here are a few suggestions to maximize the benefits and face the challenges of fostering a diverse and inclusive workplace.
Empower your employees
Make them part of the solution. Give them practical skills and tools. That way, when they’re dealing with a misunderstanding or somebody that’s different from them, they’ll be equipped to navigate those challenges.
Then you need to get feedback from them about what’s working and what’s not, and do so on an ongoing basis. Listen to them, incorporate that feedback, and then rinse and repeat.
Provide training
Training is a huge component of this. Provide good diversity and inclusion training and good bystander intervention training, so people know what to do when situations arise.
And again, it’s not a one-time, check-the-box kind of thing. You have to have effective training on an ongoing basis, because the challenges are always going to be there.
Be Proactive
I also think it’s important to address workplace concerns proactively, not wait until issues arise. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure — if you rely on a reactive approach, you’ll find yourself dealing with damage already done. That’s a lot more difficult and costly than taking steps to avoid harmful situations in the first place.
Meaningful investigations
My last suggestion is to conduct prompt and thoughtful investigations when situations do arise. It’s great to be legally compliant, and you should be. The problem is a lot of companies only focus on what the law mandates. I suggest you take a broader approach that really supports a safe work environment for everybody.
Look at the root cause and ask meaningful questions:
- Is this a systemic issue?
- Are there bigger patterns at play?
- What do we need to do so it doesn’t happen again?
Use it as an opportunity to figure out what is going on systemically, because one case is usually an indicator of a deeper issue.
Look at your processes, your procedures, and your leadership. If the issue involves a leader, that might indicate the leader needs support or training. Make it safe for them to be humble enough to admit they have some growing to do and that it’s okay as long as they do the work.
What advice would you give to other business leaders about how to manage a large team?
I would say you really need to study leadership. And unfortunately that has not been emphasized in the patterns of promotion within organizations.
Often, leaders have gotten promoted because they’ve done a good job within their area of technical skill or knowledge. But they haven’t been given much training or mentoring on how to lead people in a healthy and effective way.
You have to take a flexible leadership approach. Relying on one style to manage all your employees is not going to work these days. You need to be situational — look at each individual employee as a unique person and adjust your leadership approach to them, not the other way around.
I’m a huge fan of servant leadership. That involves getting to know each individual person so you can support them to be successful in their work. And that requires, again, feedback. Get feedback from your employees on your leadership approach.
And don’t get defensive. Check your ego at the door. Empathetic listening is the skill of the day. All leaders need to learn how to be empathetic listeners, not take things personally, and always aim to help others succeed. That, in turn, will be how you succeed.
We are very blessed that some of the biggest names in Business, VC funding, Sports, and Entertainment read this column. Is there a person in the world, or in the US whom you would love to have a private breakfast or lunch with, and why? He or she might just see this 🙂
I would love to have lunch with President Obama. I look up to him so much — I love what he stands for, and I really strive to be like him. He’s got integrity, ethics, a good moral compass, and just seems to be a good human being all around.
I posted a quote on LinkedIn recently from a woman named Stephanie Sparkles. It says, “I love when people that have been through hell walk out of the flames carrying buckets of water for those still consumed by the fire.”
He seems like an amazing bucket carrier. I would be incredibly humbled and grateful if I had an opportunity to get together with that man. (And I’d probably cry most of the time!)
How can our readers further follow your work online?
You can follow me on LinkedIn, and also be sure to follow the Nobody Studios page. You can also check out the TrainXtra website, and watch my TEDx talk.
Thank you for these excellent insights. We wish you continued success in your great work.
Sejal Thakkar of Nobody Studios: How Diversity Can Increase a Company’s Bottom Line was originally published in Authority Magazine on Medium, where people are continuing the conversation by highlighting and responding to this story.
